Adventurist Discussion: Should Adventurists Be Forced To Pay For High Cost of Rescue?
December 15, 2006
Everyone is hearing a alot about this debate in the newsmedia, so I thought I would take a chance and allow all of you to speak out.
How do you feel on this issue? Should Adventurist seekers be forced to pay for rescues?
Here are my thoughts. The Police and Rescue workers involved in this issue are already being paid. This is part of doing their job. Should they be paid more for taking part in a “high-risk” scenario? I don’t think so.
You see, these people spend their lives in high-risk scenarios. A regular traffic stop to a Police Officer is considered high risk. Do we pay them extra every time they stop a car? No….should we?
Yes, we are footing the bill for this particular rescue attempt, but if we weren’t doing it now, we would be eventually with a different scenario. Hurricane Katrina…there was some high-risk. Who got paid out of that? What about our US Military…they do it everyday. Do they get paid extra everytime they are in a tense situation?
Tell me what you think. This should be a fun and informative discussion. Let’s hear them voices!!
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Not only do I think “adventurists” should have to pay for their own rescue efforts, I wonder if the rescue should even take place. I’m sorry, but if you put yourself in such high risk situations, you’re on your own. Hurricane and other natural disasters are a terrible comparison; people can’t control the weather where they live. However, they CAN control their choice in leisure activities. As I was thinking about this issue I wondered if I was being hypocritical as a former gymnast. Is that high risk sport in the same category? No, I thought. Gymnastics and other high risk sports do not take place in remote areas, which take days for rescuers to reach. Though I feel very badly for the families of these extreme athletes, I can’t feel the same empathy for the athletes themselves. To put yourself in such risky situations with families at home is selfish, in my opinion. I say choose another sport that allows you to be there for your family until the children are older. How about a sport that you can do with your children? If you want adventure in the cold, go skiing and take your kids with you. Oh- and by the way, if you ski out-of-bounds… sorry no rescue for you either.
Christmas Miracle in the making? Does anyone else think that this whole scenario may have been planned? All of these “notes” conveniently left for rescures to find. The reaction of the wives who do not display the least amount of concern that their husbands are in extreme danger. The on again, off again cell phone. I have a sneaky feeling that they will be found after downing their last morsel of food, and the Christmas miracle will have been performed. How long until the made-for-tv movie?
I agree with DJ above …
Put yourself at risk and you should pay the bill in my opinion .
Boost your egos etc at your own expense folks ..!
My heart goes out to those close to these guys of course ..
Note from Editor: As far as people not able to control the hurricanes or natural disasters…I have one question…during Katrina, how much time did people have to get out of New Orleans? Those people decided to stay on their own…I am sorry, but that is a bad argument.
Also about the people putting themselves in a high-risk situation…Should drunk drivers have to pay for rescue? We already pay the Police to do their jobs…that is their chosen profession. Next time you call 9-1-1 because you are involved in an accident, ask them if they will take a credit card payment from you so they will rescue you. They will tell you that is their job and charge you nothing.
As far as being a gymnast–I am sure that you left your family for your meets and practice…you left your family…just because you DIDN’T get hurt, doesn’t mean the chance wasn’t there.
And as far as the “Christmas Miracle” comment–what the?Planned? Notes left with relatives and in your vehicles are one of the very first things you learn in survival training..let people know where you are. And the wives reactions? Remember, these men are proffesional climbers. They do this all the time. I am sure that this is not the first time these men have encountered problems during a climb, and sad to say…probably not the last if they come through this. These wives are accustomed to this life style. Hope will take you a long way in life.
It all goes back to a simple concept of we seemed to have forgotten. Risk takers are there for the adrenaline rush. It’s a very SELFISH, self centered way of life where the self gratification they receive from overcoming risks and challenges that ‘normal’ people would not even venture to attempt. Regardless of the fact that this is a terrible season to attempt a feat of this nature does nothing but solidify my opinion that these self centered egotists have no regard for anyone but themselves. What about their loved ones who have to endure the pain and suffering? It wasn’t their choice that these climbers attempted in what is my opinion, a Darwinistic attempt. What about the hundreds of rescue workers that are now risking their lives (not to mention opening up their own families to possible loss and suffering)? These climbers are not there to better humanity, help the masses or fight a common enemy. They are NOT heroes. They are selfish. My heart goes out to the family and friends whose lives are now torn apart because of the selfishness of these three men.
I absolutely agree with Dave. What is the ultimate scientific gain for mankind when this sort of risk is taken? If you are driven to take this kind of risk, shame on you.
Pure ego is the motivation and the only accomplishment if you succeed is
fuel for that ego. I hope and pray that no other lives will be sacrificed in this rescue attempt.
I hope that it succeeds and that everyone involved can get on with their lives, including their families.
I think if the story gets big like this one, that the TV news show advertisers should pay for the rescue. They get millions of extra viewers on stories like this even though the result has been tragic so far.
It is my opinion that only those proven to be unprepared should be billed for rescues. What the media has failed to mention is the millions of dollars that our public agencies spend every year rescuing hikers and tourists who are usually unprepared and untrained for their ill adventures.
These men were apparently very experienced climbers, properly equiped, attemping a common goal of climbing a moderately difficult mountain. People commenting negatively here obviously have no true knowledge of mountain pursuits and do not realize that under the conditions these men set out in, they were not taking any excessive risk given their goal. Mountain climbers around the world safely climb much more dangerous mountains, in similar conditions, and with much higher objective dangers.
Hind sight is 20/20. This is a tragic, unforseen accident. These men were caught unexpectedly in a storm, and deserve the assistance of all the people who are aiding them. As mentioned above, many of the people who are helping are volunteers who understand the magic of the mountains and the risk these adventures bring. These people are enriched by helping others in a time of need.
Either way, people deserve a rescue as it is standard humanitarian response for those in need. This goes for people who make poor choices in a natural disaster situation, drive when they are tired, challenge themselves with outdoor adventure, etc. In any case, if those who need rescues made decisions to face conditions for which they were not equiped and physically prepared, I believe they should be required to pay for their rescue. In a case such as this, where the party was properly prepared but was struck by an unexpected heavy storm, they should not be required to pay for their rescue.
The vast majority of rescues which take place are typically to aid untrained tourist who go into the wilderness unprepared. The millions of dollars spent rescuing these people is rarely ever expected to be payed by those rescued.
There are 3 things that have distorted the subject discussed here:
1) national media dramatization of a rescue attempt, stirring this current debate while 100’s of rescue operations go without attention or criticism for non-climbers.
2) A lack of understanding on the essence of why some are driven to rise above the drone of ordinary lives and achieve great challenges under relatively low calculated risk situations.
3) The statisical fact that you are much more likely to die in a car or bicycling as you are climbing. To those uneducated to the details of climbing, it seems to be a perilous pursuit of fools, while ironically we face much greater risk everytime we drive our cars.
One more misconception that I would like to comment on is what Dave describes. Like many of those who do not understand the motivation behind those who challenge themselves to achieve, it his implied assumption that all climbers are self centered risk takers and merely pursue the activity for the “thrill”.
Ironically, psychological research on the vast majority of participants in climbing and other percieved high risk sports reveals that very few do it for the “thrill”. What researchers have found is that for most, the self challenges are typical of personalities who are not happy or fulfilled living “normal”, idle lives, but find deep satisfaction by suceeding in difficult situations both at work and play. Most of the participants are also well educated to the actual risk of the activity, which as I mentioned above, are in most cases much safer than our typical daily lives.
I do not condemn Dave’s view, but wish to help broaden his and others perspective as they are often unknowingly mislead by dramatic media coverage and lack of factual representation of the true risk and motivations of such individuals.
All of these are excellent points. One fact I will challenge though is that the storm that is moving through the northwest was about 24 hours out when these men left for the summit. I travel for a living and was very well aware of the impending storm as we traveled through the Northwest (BC, Alberta and Washington)with 16 busses and 18 trucks full of gear. We were expecting this storm based on reports nearly a week before we arrived in the Northwest.
It saddens me that one of the climbers has lost his life. No one deserves to die. My point is still that the driving force behind any of that type of risk taking is self centered. Fullfilling or not, it’s all about the individual and his quests, challenges and accomplishments. I stand by my earlier comments and pray for those family and friend’s whose Holiday Season now has a tragic and somber face which will be felt every Holiday season by those that will indeed miss him.
Sorry, one other point. I’ve never seen C-130 aircraft and hundreds of rescuers flock to the scene of a single car accident. Yes, risk is inherent in daily life, but it’s the hype caused by the misjudgement of a few that gets me back to the point that people don’t choose to be in car ACCIDENTS. If the risks involved with mountain climbing were as you stated similar to driving a car then I believe the insurance industry would be hung to dry for overcharging risk takers. Following your logic, you must find it absurd that insurance companies get away with charging or even denying coverage for risk takers. It’s like comparing lottery winners to those struck by lighting. Yes the odds are VERY similar, but one group CHOSE their situation just as these climbers CHOSE to climb the mountain and take the risk.
To Thehendricksreport: If you read my entry more carefully, I specified that I’m concerned about high risk activities that take place in REMOTE PLACES, like a mountainside in winter. So your point about drunk driving (though completely abhorrent behavior), is a high risk activity that can result a rescue that is usually accessible. Your comment about gymnasts taking the same kind of risks doesn’t hold water in this debate for the same reason. Rescuers can access a gymnastics facility very easily. So you lose that debate. Next point? Bottom line: I agree with Dave that these “extreme athletes” are selfish ego-maniacs. As a wife with children, I would NEVER support a husband who participates in these types of activities. Find a NEW sport when you take on the responsibility of having children. I feel ZERO sympathy for the hiker who died. But I pray for his family and friends who are forced to endure the pain caused by his passing.
Hendricks- Are you serious???
“As far as people not able to control the hurricanes or natural disasters…I have one question…during Katrina, how much time did people have to get out of New Orleans?”
Tell me your not serious…I guess to answer your question they had sometime but no means of leaving. What your not understanding is that a large number of people are dependant on public transportation in New Orleans which was not running. What where all of those people doing on the freeway walking? Hmmmm attempting to get out. How much would it cost to get out of a town while a few other million people are trying to do the same thing? But wait they live paycheck to paycheck in poverty.
To compare victums (I repeat victums) of Hurrican Katrina with three guys that went up on a moutain during a risky time of the year by their own choice is poor.
Manley - I couldn’t agree more with you.
You have to love all these lazyboy experts. So you would never put yourself in harms way. Well lets see, you drive, some of you may hike or hunt or I would hope some sort of recreational activity. (Judging from the size of americans these day that may not be true anymore). I do not understand mountain climbing nor would I want to do it but that doesn’t mean someone else shouldn’t do it. We all put ourselves at risk in some way and we would hope that someone would help us if we were ever in trouble. No matter how we got in that situation. Remember naysayers, “what comes around, goes around”. God help you if you ever needed help.
Rachel: Yet again, I refer SPECIFICALLY to high risk sports that take place in REMOTE PLACES. I refer to rescues that put rescuers at risk unnecessarily. I’m not a “lazyboy expert.” In fact, I’m a very active athlete, who participates in surfing, skiing, etc, etc. BUT… if I were to ski on a closed trail or surf one of those massive waves, I would NEVER expect people to come fetch me! As far as I’m concerned, if one chooses to climb a mountain in winter, one chooses to do so at his/her own risk. So, climb on, hike on, ski on, etc. But don’t use MY tax dollars to fetch your ass when you get lost.
DJ - I don’t believe you can say that you would not want anyone to help you. I think your attitude would change if it was your life on the line. And I’m sure your family would want someone to rescue you if you needed it. Do you cross country ski or is it all downhill at a ski resort? Surfing can be dangerous too even when you think you are safe. I’m just glad that not everyone thinks like you. As far as your tax dollars going to this rescue effort, most of these rescuers are volunteers. I would never do any of these things just cause I’m a chicken shit. I’m a runner which has it’s own dangers with all the crazy drivers out there. I also enjoy hiking which puts me out in the middle of nowhere. So if I got lost or fell down a cliff or something stupid I don’t deserve to be rescued unless I paid for it? I’m sure these men did not think this would happen. As far as doing this in winter, that is the safest time to climb this route (according to the experienced climbers).
Rachel: I downhill and cross country ski AND I’ve skied in the woods AT MY OWN RISK. I didn’t say I wouldn’t WANT someone to rescue me; I said it’s not right to EXPECT it or expect that the government will foot the bill. Personally, I try not to be too overly risky in the choices I make, specifically because I feel a sense of loyalty and responsibility to my family. That is, I put their concerns above my selfish desires. Yes, I believe that the cost of a rescue to a very remote location would indeed be MY responsibility. MY choice to go there; MY responsibility to pay for rescue.
My heart goes out to the hikers and their families but they made a conscious decision to risk their lives and as adventurists they should share the responsibility of the cost of the rescue. Maybe not them, this time, but I do feel that it would be wise to require “rescue insurance” or a “license fee” for mt. climbers and adventurers. Similar to what fisherman pay for the privilage of fishing. The money could be used to keep mountains clean, trails in repair, and rescue missions.
Wow- everyone is so worried about their “tax dollars” being wasted on saving lives. Let’s keep this in perspective people- we are probably spending more killing people in 5 minutes in any given war than what this rescue will cost. I know I’m just opening up a whole other can of worms with my comments, but as if our tax dollars are sacred or something.
I think Rachel is absolutely right regarding DJ’s comment that he would not want his own tax dollars wasted to save his own life- I doubt this would hold true if he really were in need. Such assertions or so easily made from the keyboard. Facing death, all but the suicidle would be wish for a second chance at life.
It’s apparent from DJ’s comments that he does not venture into remote places. Fortunately, despite DJ’s preference, the fact is that our great country has consistently shown that when people are in need, all attempts will be made to assist them, whatever the cost. It is also clearly standard that no charges will be passed on the rescue, especially if it is clear that the were well trained and equipped for their adventure. Not only is this the standard in the US, but it is even further realized in Western Europe, where it is very common for people to engage in activities that take them away from the safe net of the urban infrastructure.
DJ- I may have over spoken regarding your preference for remote adventures.
None the less, I actually agree with a few of your points, but find them irrelevant within the context of who should pay for a rescue.
The responsibility of these climbers to their families- is between them and their families. Regardless, they deserve a full rescue just like the 100’s of casual hikers who are privileged to be saved every year in our national parks.
Erik’s comments regarding fees would be a good idea if these cost were not already covered by federal and local budgets, and in some cases, climbers are required to pay fees for peak access. In the case of Mt. Hood and all other federal lands, the reality is that the vast majority of users and the vast majority of those requiring any assistance are not climbers or those seeking “high risk” activities. Its easy to single out climbers as an example, when they are actually a fraction of the total cost to our federal land system.
Again, due to sensationalized national media coverage, this whole thing is blown out of proportion. If CNN covered every rescue operation on public land, we’d probably be debating the cost of having any public land for us to enjoy.
People who smoke, or eat unhealthy food just for the “pleasure” of it, get heart attacks or cancer and we all pay for it through higher health insurance premiums. It makes no difference whether someone is in a remote location or in their armchair at home. We pay for other people’s risky behaviors all the time. Why single out mountain climbers? However, that doesn’t mean it is okay for society to pay for it. People who engage in risky behavior of any sort should have to buy extra insurance (e.g. mountain climbing) or pay higher premiums (e.g. health insurance for smokers).
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I believe that, if we hikers have to pay taxes on your sports arenas, for example the seahawks stadium and the mariners stadium, of which niether iv been in, why cant you folks pay taxes for the lost hikers. In the rare ocasion one of us does get lost, most of the search party is conducted by fellow climber/volunteers.
“Billing for rescues and searches endangers public safety,” — Colorado’s search and rescue teams
For many hours the anguished wife searched for her new husband, missing above
timberline in our mountains. The sun set and after dark a front rolled in enveloping
the peak in solid clouds — in which her new husband and, finally, the rescue team
members, could see but a few feet. The rescuers risked walking off the top of invisible 500′ cliffs in the dark.
Why didn’t she call for help for those many hours? She was afraid that calling for help would cost her thousands of dollars. She had begun to wonder which bank account, hers or her new husband’s, held enough money to pay the bill she expected.
Fortunately, the SAR team found the missing husband in the wee hours of the
morning, but not before operating in extreme conditions with potential for a catastrophic, fatal, accident. She was very grateful and glad to learn her fear was unfounded.
In 1987 the Colorado Search and Rescue Board, our state’s organization of SAR
teams, stated it opposed requests made for reimbursement for anything except
“actual extraordinary expenses” incurred while coming to the aid of someone in
distress.
The Colorado SAR community has gone so far as to state it “will actively oppose
and disassociate themselves from any effort to enforce collection of expenses from
a victim or his family.” SAR teams recognize that reimbursement for actual extraordinary expenses may be requested, and do not oppose those requests, “provided that such a request is clearly an appeal based upon a perceived moral obligation under particular circumstances, and that it is not a demand for payment nor apparently based upon either legal right or routine policy. We believe that any such request should be made privately and not publicized, so the victims and their families are not embarrassed, and so the general public does not infer that such requests for reimbursement are routinely made.” The full position statement can be read at http://www.coloradosarboard.org/csrb-sarfees.asp.
This position is not unique to Colorado; SAR units across the United States have
similar positions. The Mountain Rescue Association, the National Park Service and
the U.S. Coast Guard all agree.
Citizens that enjoy Colorado’s outdoors organized them selves as specially trained
SAR teams and began performing rescues and searches in Colorado in 1946. There was no one else to do it. Today our state’s nearly 60 SAR units provide this service to residents and visitors and still ask for no compensation.
When SAR teams are called and carry out the mission they will not bill the victim,
local government or taxpayers.
The idea of not billing for our services perplexes many people. The reason is
very simple — public safety. The SAR community knows of many instances in
which someone in a dire predicament delayed calling for help. Others have refused
to call 9-1-1 for help. Each “remembered” hearing, seeing or reading,
“somewhere” that rescues and searches cost thousands of dollars and they
would receive a bill. This belief is as unsafe as not calling the fire department
when, in seconds, a small stove fire grows to the ceiling and begins to fill the
entire room, because your first thought is not safety, but how in the world will I
pay?
Howard Paul
Public Affiard Manager
Colorado Search and Rescue Board